But unfortunately the deficiencies in the system before that point also mean that setting simplistic targets leads (In My Experience) to admitting more people who are aren't suited to the way Cambridge works, and so don't do as well; which is bad for both Cambridge and the people in question, who would've been better off elsewhere.
"should it be compensated for" and "how do we compensate for it" are different questions (and if the answer to the first is "yes" the second might still be "nobody knows"). Granted that's way beyond the detail of the poll, but that's what comments are for...
Statements like "would've been better off elsewhere" are problematic, I think, because they are guesses, not facts (since you can't put the same person through two universities and then see how their life turns out either way).
No, but there are people like me who started at one and finished at another and can compare the two reasonably well and decide where they were better off... :-)
I am now (well, three or four years ago I was, anyway) a person who would suit the Oxbridge system. At 19 I was not, and on top of a bunch of personal issues hungover from living away from home 17-19, the college system was about the worst situation I could have been in. I really needed a campus-style university, or better still, not to have been in formal education at all at that point. Which is what I opted for.
When I decided to return to education five years later I chose Brookes for geographical/financial convenience. I could have chosen to go down a more rigorous academic route but after one bad experience you can imagine I didn't really want to attempt Oxbridge again. Halfway through my degree I realised I would probably have enjoyed and benefited from Oxbridge that time round, but... c'est la vie. I had no wish to start explaining to admissions tutors why I'd 'stuffed up' first time round, and didn't need to do that with Brookes (no interview). If I ever get around to applying for a doctorate it will be at Brookes but that's because of a potential supervisor with whom I get on splendidly. If she moved I'd reconsider.
If I could change one thing in my life that's probably the most significant one I could pick. A year out then would have been useful but because I'd already had one 16-17 (because of leaving school to go off to a specific course at an out-of-county FE college) I didn't think I could. I should have done.
I always thought that it would make most sence to judge people purely on name- and gender-less CVs. Hopefully that would cut the bias. Of course, that will also help hopeless cases like me that interview badly ;). I doubt there is any completely unbiased method that, as you pointed out, doesn't end up admitting people who couldn't handle Cambridge.
Of course, for me, i could either work, or handle Cambridge, but not both. Hence I organised the Joms reunion in my third year. I think I'd have been much happier somewhere else (up until the point where I fail to meet Adrian, of course)
Nameless and genderless CVs is all very well for the first stage of selection (although they'd also have to miss the name of the school off the CV to avoid revealing gender, and the 'personal statement' would have to be written so as not to give any clues...), but I don't think tutors can really make a fair judgement on whether somebody will be able to deal with and benefit from the tutorial system without interviewing them first.
possibly - although I interviewed at Johns, and screwed up really badly. they dropped me in the pool, and New Hall took me without interview. I'm fine when I'm in a working relationship with people, I just stress so much about making a bad first impression, that I make a really bad first impression. *sigh*
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(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-22 01:52 pm (UTC)But unfortunately the deficiencies in the system before that point also mean that setting simplistic targets leads (In My Experience) to admitting more people who are aren't suited to the way Cambridge works, and so don't do as well; which is bad for both Cambridge and the people in question, who would've been better off elsewhere.
It's a fundamentally complex problem.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-22 02:04 pm (UTC)"should it be compensated for" and "how do we compensate for it" are different questions (and if the answer to the first is "yes" the second might still be "nobody knows"). Granted that's way beyond the detail of the poll, but that's what comments are for...
Statements like "would've been better off elsewhere" are problematic, I think, because they are guesses, not facts (since you can't put the same person through two universities and then see how their life turns out either way).
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-22 02:15 pm (UTC)I am now (well, three or four years ago I was, anyway) a person who would suit the Oxbridge system. At 19 I was not, and on top of a bunch of personal issues hungover from living away from home 17-19, the college system was about the worst situation I could have been in. I really needed a campus-style university, or better still, not to have been in formal education at all at that point. Which is what I opted for.
When I decided to return to education five years later I chose Brookes for geographical/financial convenience. I could have chosen to go down a more rigorous academic route but after one bad experience you can imagine I didn't really want to attempt Oxbridge again. Halfway through my degree I realised I would probably have enjoyed and benefited from Oxbridge that time round, but... c'est la vie. I had no wish to start explaining to admissions tutors why I'd 'stuffed up' first time round, and didn't need to do that with Brookes (no interview). If I ever get around to applying for a doctorate it will be at Brookes but that's because of a potential supervisor with whom I get on splendidly. If she moved I'd reconsider.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-23 02:38 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-23 04:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-22 06:19 pm (UTC)Of course, for me, i could either work, or handle Cambridge, but not both. Hence I organised the Joms reunion in my third year. I think I'd have been much happier somewhere else (up until the point where I fail to meet Adrian, of course)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-23 02:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-25 10:56 am (UTC)