Antiquities

[ewx]

I came back from the British Museum with a Rosetta Stone jigsaw. I've finished the Hieroglypics and Demotic and am working on the Greek at the moment.

Last night my eyes were picking out Greek letters in the texture on the ceiling.

I took a lot of photos.

The parthenon frieze - perhaps better known as the Elgin marbles - provide a good opportunity to reflect on the rights and wrongs of carrying this stuff off to Britain, the same question applying to much of the material on display. Putting it all on display in one place certainly has value for the people who can get to that place, and London is not exactly out of the way; but I still can't help but feel that the Greeks and Egyptians have a point in wanting things back.

(The fairly numerous Assyrian artefacts are surely better off in London than today's Iraq, mind.)

Comments

[aldabra]

Oh wow, respect. I got that the Christmas before last and never finished it (though in my defence I had a cat and Kathy helping, and it was at the in-laws' and never actually came back here, being half-assembled).

[aardvark179.livejournal.com]

I clicked on that photos link expecting some sort of piece by piece record of your jigsaw achievements. I feel somehow let down.

How many pieces is that jigsaw anyway?

[ewx.livejournal.com]

800.

Not all of the pieces with straight edges are actually edge pieces, though they are near the edge.

[gerald_duck]

I fully understand why the Greeks might want the Elgin Marbles back, and even why it might be better for the World's heritage if they were returned — though I'm far from sure of that point — but I don't think the Greeks can claim any moral right to them.

Lord Elgin removed them with the full permission of the government of the time; the quarrel of present-day Greeks should surely be with the erstwhile sultan of a long-defunct empire, not with us? The only reason we're getting an earful is that we're still here to listen.

Besides, I feel it's broadly a good thing that the work of artists and civilisations are distributed through many museums around the world. It's good that I can walk into a museum in London and see things from around the world; it's also good that if someone nuked Venice this wouldn't destroy the World's entire stock of Canaletto paintings, for example.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

You propose that the Greeks should be employing a medium, then, rather than lobbying the people who actually have their bits of rock.

[gerald_duck]

I propose that they should just face the fact the Elgin Marbles aren't theirs any more.

Or perhaps the UK should ask for the USA back. After all, it's not really our fault George III was a bit of an idiot.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

By the same token we should have retained all our colonies in Africa and Asia?

[gerald_duck]

Indeed. Though we ought still to be part of the Roman Empire, really.

The problem with trying to undo history is how far back one ought to go, and how we go about second-guessing the winding forward again to the present.

In the case of the Elgin Marbles, we got them by what in those days passed for lawful authority; we don't even have to rely on right of conquest.

The dismantling of the British Empire was much more about the dissipated strength of the British military machine after WWII and the pragmatic infeasibility of retaining the Dominions Overseas than it was about any moral debate. Africa has most certainly not been reinstated anything like how it was before Britain came along: the current patchwork of nations bears little resemblance to the previous tribal structures. Although millions of Africans now have the holy grail of Democracy, I'm not sure in practical terms many of them are better off. A more gradual devolution, possibly over the course of a couple of generations, might have worked a whole bunch better.

I'd much rather be having the pragmatic discussion about how best to stabilise Africa than the moral discussion about whose greatⁿ-grandfather did what to whose. Of course things won't work if there's friction between some proposed solution and the perceived historical grievances of a people, but that's moved out of the realm of history and into sociology and politics — whether or not the grievance is genuine matters little when trying to find a solution.

[ewx.livejournal.com]

You are relying on right of conquest there. The Turks were not invited to rule Greece, they took it by force of arms.

[mtbc100.livejournal.com]

With those headless statues and spare heads perhaps some obvious marriages could be made.

[rochvelleth.livejournal.com]

I've heard lots of classicist professor types with different opinions about the Elgin marbles and such like. Prof Snodgrass is very bitter about the stealing and mistreating of the marbles (he gave a very passionate talk for the Herodoteans once), while Prof Killen thinks they should stay where they are (he has his own bit of Linear B tablet, so he doesn't like the idea of Greece claiming things back!).

I find it difficult to make up my mind conclusively. On the one hand, I think it's best generally if things of archaeological interest are preserved in situ - sometimes items have to be moved for their own safety (e.g. Sea Henge), but the Elgin marbles were OK where they were (there's a pollution argument, but I'm not sure I think it's worth much). On the other hand, I don't really think we should give things back to countries from whom they were plundered many years ago - why is it so bad for them to be in a country where they're (now) looked after pretty well and generally revered by viewers? They're a part of the history of English classicism and antiquarianism now anyway, so maybe we have some claim on them.

Apparently there are big plans in Athens to build a stunning gallery to show them off when they get them back though...

[knell.livejournal.com]

I've always thought the talk about "mistreatment" is kind of disingenuous - given that the said cleaning-with-a-wire-brush happened, well, a very long time ago when people didn't really know any better about conservation techniques, I find it hard to follow the assumption that they would have somehow fared better if left attached to the Parthenon for a century and a half, wot with all that acid rain and terrible Athenian pollution.

That said, the obvious solution seems to me to build a replica of the good bits to keep in the British Museum and send the originals back, which would probably keep most people happy. Of course, they're not going to be displayed in their original setting even if they do go back - they'll still be in a museum and out of their original context.

There are other examples of this "give it all back!" stuff - Easter Island regularly makes noises about wanting the one (1) stone head of many which the British Museum has back. To me, suddenly stumbling across it in the new glass domey bit was amazing, and given that it's the only place to see such a thing without going to Easter Island... well, I don't see why they can't spare at least one, just to show off to the world..

[ewx.livejournal.com]

Many famous objects tour the world from time to time even if their home is a single museum - King Tut came to London in the 1970s and the terracotta army is supposed to be at the British Museum next year (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/londoncuts/articles/23041013?source=Evening%20Standard). (Must go see it...)

[rochvelleth.livejournal.com]

Oh wow, I didn't know the Terracotta Army was coming - *squeeeeeeeeee* :)

I think there's a lot to be said for taking these things around and letting the world see them. It seems fair. I suppose there might be an argument about artefacts getting damaged while travelling, but the risk can't outweigh the cultural gain, surely...

[rochvelleth.livejournal.com]

I think maybe it's not so bad to get slightly angry about the 'mistreatment' (they did pretty serious damage, taking rather a lot off the surface), but you're right - these things are ancient, and it's very unlikely they would have come to no harm at all over the years. Besides, we're lucky to have them (especially after the magazine explosion of the seventeenth century).

Maybe we could make *very good* replicas, pretend they're the originals and send those to Greece ;)

[ewx.livejournal.com]

AIUI the gallery exists and has gaps for the bits that are in Britain.

[rochvelleth.livejournal.com]

Does it exist now? Wow, I didn't realise (it was a few years ago when we were lectured at by Prof Snodgrass).

[ewx.livejournal.com]

On googling further I think it must still be under construction.

[hmmm-tea.livejournal.com]

weirdly I just read that as:

"I came back from the British Museum with the Rosetta Stone"

somehow I have a feeling the British Museum would have been less keen on you doing that though...

[doseybat.livejournal.com]

The British Museum bookshop is a highly dangeorus place not to be attended too often, or too long before closing time, in my experience. The one round the back of the bit in the middle under the new roof. last time I was there I sadly failed to get into the museum at all.. Well done for getting away with bank account mostly intact!